Happy Valentine's Day!!!!!!!!
Today is the glorious day we get to discuss all things romance! Anything and everything! Agree, debate, whatever! I'd love to hear all opinions of the topics you choose to discuss.
Topics? Hmm...how about how steamy can you get in YA? What's your favorite part of writing a kissing scene? Do you like the nice guy or the bad boy? Can the heroine be madly in love but still be tough as Katniss? What's your favorite love story and/or characters? Is romance as good in the male perspective? Are love triangles the way to go? Does there have to be HEA? Can you kill off one of your MC's crushes or is that just plain evil? :D
You get it. Now let's get talkin....
Wow, that's a lot of questions and I think my brain is on total overload.
ReplyDeleteThe one that got me the most was "can you kill off one of your MC's crushes". As a writer, I say anything is possible...but as a reader, I'm pretty sure I would throw the book across the room and never read that author again. Unless, it was a paranormal story in which that is one of the twists. Otherwise, the romantic in me can't handle it.
Though threatening a crush with imminent death (think Jem from The Infernal Devices) will ensure I love him that much more.
One of my amazing CPs' books kills off the main character's boyfriend in the first chapter. It's her motivation for doing a lot of stuff throughout the entire trilogy. AMAZING.
DeleteAh, but see if it happens in the first chapter, I haven't gotten attached to him yet. I was thinking more along the lines of, don't make me fall in love with a character and picture the MC having a future with him and THEN kill him off.
DeleteI would want to throw the book, too. BUT some of my FAVORITE love stories include death of a character I love. How about, as mentioned, TITANIC, or ROMEO and JULIET, or love love love TRISTAN and ISOLDE. The loss almost makes me care about the characters more possibly. :)
DeleteI don't really like when the mc's love interest is killed off. Will Weaver wrote a ya novel called Claws and (spoiler alert) just when the book is coming to a resolution and their hate-each-other relationship has turned into something real, BAM, she's killed. Totally completely unexpected. I was stunned.
DeleteI loved the book up until her death. I would have a hard time writing something that ends like that.
Ooh, lots of questions! I love a romance from a male POV, as long as it's written with a fabulous voice. And I'm kinda over love triangles, unless it's a really good one. But for the most part, I like the one on one love story when the conflict isn't choosing to be with one person or the other, but something else.
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm with Tracy on killing off the crush. I would toss the book across the room for realz!
I don't care what anyone in publishing tries to tell us on this topic, I still love me some love triangle. I think I always have and always will. Of course, as you said there still has to be more conflict they're facing.
DeleteOh, and I could use some good recommendations for great male POV romances. I've only read BEAUTIFUL CREATURES and I liked it, but didn't love it. It was hard to feel the romance while I was in the guy's head. :-)
DeleteTEMPEST by Julie Cross is told from a male's point of view and has a great central relationship. It's also a phenomenal YA release.
DeleteI can handle a good love triangle if it is done right. But the crush being killed off has to be for a bigger reason. AND I LOVE books from male POV if it's done right.
DeleteLoving Emily was one of my favs. And Jolene Perry's Night Sky comes out on March 1st, and ya... totally plugging her book cuz it was awesome and the guy POV was fabulous! Really good voice.
DeleteSarah LaPolla has a terrific essay posted on this very topic over at her Glass Cases blog. Really worth a read for every writer. So check it out. I am amazed that the most romances that endure ( in our memories and through time) are the ones where the love is only briefly realized - then ends. Think Romeo and Juliet, Scarlett and Rhett, Jack and Kate in Titanic, etc. The love cannot sustain itself but blossoms briefly and beautifully. Happily ever after might be just a bit boring it seems.
ReplyDeleteYou make an excellent point, but the cynic in me drags my heart-strings to believe that the 'happily ever after' crowd got off light. Nobody ever writes about how the young couple deals with adversity, differences in parenting styles, dwindling attraction and wandering eyes five years down the line. Therefore, tragedy ends romance at the height of its literary potential. The real love stories for me are the ones that start where others stop.
DeleteI think that's true for the meat of the book, but in the end I want a total happily ever after. If not, it kills me!:(
DeleteYa, same here Deana. That's why I didn't like any of those love stories. (Don't throw fruit at me!) :)
DeleteOf course, a HEA makes my heart go pitter patter and smile like an idiot at 4 in the morning (I'm not crazy!), but there's something about the tragedies that also make an impact on your memory. I may love the HEA stories, but I have to admit, it's the ones that don't end up together that stick to me sometimes. But it can't be open ended. I hate those lol
DeleteAnd in my opinion, Titanic doesn't really fit that cause in the end they DO end up together. And to me, that last scene on the boat made it a HEA cause it left me happy in the end. :)
I agree with you Jenn! The tragedies really impact your memory and love for the poor characters. I do think Titanic counts since Jack dies and she must live the rest of her life without him.
DeleteBut as I mentioned above, I think my all-time favorite is Tristan and Isolde. Their happiness was sooo short lived. Just one tragedy after another. BUT I LOVE THEM!!!!
Matt- I see what your saying. Makes me think of THE NOTEBOOK where it shows how they've struggled together but remained in love. TRUE LOVE!
DeleteAnd I'll never admit it to my wife, so shut your face, but the Notebook is the best romance I've ever seen.
DeleteNo worries. The Notebook is my hubby's favorite too.
DeleteOh my gosh, Matt. Do not tell your wife. My husband told me the Notebook is his favorite and I always give him a hard time about it. I'll never let him live that one down. :)
DeleteOh I forgot about Tristan and Isolde. I love love love that one!
DeleteGreat discussions here today! Tristan & Isolde is my all time fave too.... it's the forbidden but yearned for love that melts my butter every time... to want something so badly and can't have it, that you hang on a passing glance that says it all because that's all you can have..... *le sigh*
DeleteI read a book (adult fiction, not YA) that killed off the main love interest 1/2 way in. It was SHOCKING, but actually worked really well. I was surprised because I, too, thought I'd hate a book that did that. Re: writing a kissing scene - it's both fun and awkward I think. I love writing those scenes because they're amazing, but also trying to...choreograph it I suppose? Always weird. Plus, to think my parents might be reading it one day... (and, yeah, I'm 28 and still worried about that. ha!)
ReplyDeleteBlast. I thought I would grow out of the embarrassment. But I'm glad I'm not the only one who worries about my family reading my romantic scenes.
DeleteOr even worse, your children reading those scenes some day! eeewww, Mom. That's gross.
DeleteYes and yes on both accounts. I blush just thinking about it:)
DeleteLol, my hubby is the one that I'm embarrassed about seeing it for some reason. I think it's cuz he asked me once if he's supposed to be cheesy like that.
DeleteAHHH! I love this convo! I'm at the point where I'm upping the romance in my book and most of my family hasn't read it yet. Whenever I add something slightly steamy or tastefully cheesy I think how weird they're going to think I am. haha!
DeleteI actually told my brother-in-law I didn't know if I wanted him to read it cause he'd think it was weird. He doesn't even watch PG-13 movies. :)
But my hubby actually tells me to keep it up, which was not expected.
Oh I'm glad I'm not the only one! I guess we never grow out of the awkwardness? Hehe. I'm fine with my husband reading it, but my parents? My little brother? Just weird.
DeleteNope... not the only one who feels awkward. I ended up cutting a very heated scene involving a 'handy' short because I knew my mom wanted to be one of my beta readers... and I'm in my 30's >.< *mama's boy fail*
DeleteI love Cupids comments. I feel the same way. My brother reading my kissing scenes just seems weird, but mine are more PG then PG-13 so it's not so bad.
DeleteI was so crazy nervous to let my husband read a sexually tense scene I recently wrote. I finally caved this weekend, and he LOVED it, I couldn't believe it. He keeps asking me every day now if I've written more that he can read. Who knew?
DeleteLaughing at Matthew! My mom is actually the one who tells me to put more smut into it.
Deleteilima, you are so lucky! I get lectures on my steamy kisses and my fade to black scene was a huge debate for a long time.
DeleteHe actually just read my bouncer entry and fussed at me for using the word damn. *sigh* And I wonder why its hard for me to let myself out of the box?
Charity, I'm so sorry. MIne's read other stuff I've written (scary, mild horror type stuff) and gave me a hard time about it. I guess having a wife who is sex-crazed is better than one with murderous tendencies. :)
DeleteThat's funny Charity because I know the feeling. I NEVER cuss but my characters do, and it makes me feel kinda of guilty. But it's not me? Right? haha
DeleteOooh, what book?
ReplyDelete"Chasing Daisy" by Paige Toon. She's a British writer, so her books are a bit harder to find in the US, but I love them. Sorry for the spoiler!
Deleteooooo I just did an interlibrary loan for it! So excited!
DeleteI think killing off a love interest can work, but it can't be killing him/her off just because they are in the way. That's just too easy. On short, blazing romance vs. long-standing love, I have mixed feelings. Sure, there is a unique passion in those stories where the love burns bright for only a moment, but sometimes, I want to read a novel and think at the end that the couple is strong enough to stay together. Love is more than just that initial passion, after all.
ReplyDeleteLove triangles I'm kind of meh on right now.
Cassandra Clare actually gave a great talk at the SCBWI winter meeting about how it's not love triangles most people are tired of, but the way they're being done.
DeleteI tend to agree. Too many love triangles in stories these days are skewed heavily toward one love interest over another...which can make them feel contrived. I think a love triangle is used correctly when the reader can't easily decide which guy the girl should end up with.
A love triangle, of sorts—one of my favorite books of all time is Lionel Shriver's Post Birthday World in which chapters alternate telling how her life unfolds with two different men. It's certainly not a happily-ever-after story—for either tale. But I fell in love with the "bad boy" story. Stayed with me for weeks afterwards.
DeleteI think that is the big problem with love triangles. You know the second guy/girl doesn't stand a chance, but you still have to suffer through the whole thing until the MC makes up their mind. Not all of them are bad, but some of them just make you want to smack the MC for leading the other person on.
DeleteI think I disagree. I hate when the MC doesn't know which one she likes. I HAVE to know which one to root for. Even if it's the underdog. :)
DeleteThis makes me think of Katniss. The entire time I was frustrated I didn't know who she liked if she even liked EITHER of the two. I understand the romance wasn't a huge part of those books, but if there are two guys I want to feel which one she loves. (Or even both) But when she ended up with who she did *ahem* I was like...okay, is that who she wanted? I couldn't tell.
What do you guys think?
Plus if we're talking about YA we have to remember their teenagers. If at some points we don't want to smack them in the head, there is probably something wrong. :D
Delete"Plus if we're talking about YA we have to remember their teenagers. If at some points we don't want to smack them in the head, there is probably something wrong. :D" I love that. And completely agree! re: triangles, I'm okay with them. Some work, some don't, but I always find myself having a favorite from page one. And because I'm biased, I get irritated when the MC doesn't see my POV. I mean, CLEARLY I know what's best for her! ;)
DeleteWell, we generally get plenty of chances to want to smack them in the head. :D And not all of the triangles are bad. I'm totally torn up right now with the Will/Jem/Tessa situation. Sometimes, though, it seems like the love triangle is just thrown in to give conflict where another problem might have done better.
DeleteIn regards to the Katniss/Peeta/Gale triangle, I like to pretend the last book didn't even happen. Just because I felt that way too... that she just went with the guy available, but not necessarily the one she wanted. It was the guy I wanted her to want, but still. It was like blah blah blah and in the end I married (insert name here).
DeleteI agree. I hate when the girl is wishy/washy. I want her to really love one but maybe something still pulls her to the other. And I am with you on the end of Hunger Games.
DeleteLove triangles. There are different kinds of them. I wrote my book from 2 boys' POVs - they both love the same girl but it's not so much a triangle because it is very clear which boy she loves. I also tried to make it so the reader doesn't want the one boy to end up with the girl - you just want him to be happy and you want the couple to be happy. It was difficult to make the reader want a win-win for all three. I wanted the reader to like both boys. I think there are varying degrees of 'triangle' status. I wonder if the 'typical' triangle story is the one that gets old? (you know, they are both amazing and perfect and he/she loves them both and they both love back)- the kind where you have to read to the end to see who she/he chooses. Do you agree?
ReplyDeleteMy biggest pet peeve: When I hear 'that's not realistic' about a teen couple in love. Do you agree that teens DO feel crazy intense love for one another? They do feel like this boy/girl is the one and they do love hard, hurt hard, etc. Sometimes I feel like people don't remember being a teenager or perhaps maybe when they were teens they never met someone who made them want to live and die for that person. It happens. Geez, I've listened to women say (about a book) "that's not realistic the way the two of them love each other" and I think - man, didn't you ever sit home once as a teen and cry your eyes out over a boy? Didn't you ever stop breathing when the boy you liked so much touched your hand?? When he broke up with you, didn't you feel like your world ended? Yeah, it's realistic. It happens. Every kind of love happens. That's why there are a million writers out there writing about every kind of love.
Oh, I have no doubts about the intensity with which teens can feel about another person or the bonds they can make in a relatively short span of time. I received that comment from a professor once about a nonfiction piece I wrote for a class. She said she didn't believe a person could get so attached to another in just six months or so. The funny thing is, my closest, dearest, longest friends? Yeah, I met them in that same time span. It does happen, and it's as realistic as anything else in this world.
DeleteThat's true. I remember doodling my crush's name on my notebook, coming to my friend's homeroom everyday so I could see him without being obvious and replaying our conversations in my head all day, trying to discover any hidden meaning in his words. And how much my cheeks hurt the whole day when he finally told me he liked me and thinking we were perfect together and would last forever. We lasted two weeks. And crying all night when I caught another crush holding hands with someone else (all three different guys).
DeleteIronically I met my current boyfriend (he was neither of the ones from above) that same year and now we've been together for nearly nine years. So teenagers do and can feel intense love and they can actually meet the love of their life at the age of fifteen.
And even if it's not, who's to say the emotions weren't real at the time?
Agreed with everything said here! Teens' worlds feel smaller and more intense to them than to adults, I do believe.
DeleteI love writing those awkward beginning stages of love, especially when the MC doesn't initially like the love interest (maybe because I didn't like my now husband when we first met- hey, write what you know!). The subtle brushes of arms, the tingling when you first touch hands, the dropping, fluttering stomach when you're close enough to kiss. It's also so much fun to torment my characters with close-but-not-quite-there moments.
ReplyDeleteI think I read somewhere that when writing a romance, the MC and the love interest may part during the story, but they cannot ever have 'relations' with another character before they reunite at the end of the story. It was sort of rule in the romance-writing formula. Can anyone weigh in on this?
ReplyDeleteI don't know if it's been said, but it's a dumb rule if it has. No one is going to give ME rules like that. :D
DeleteIt's definitely been said before, and while I know it's unrealistic I can see why it might put off romance readers... or at least it would put them off the hero. I personally think it would be interesting to see the heroine get a little action, rather than the man always having women throw themselves at his feet!
Deletelame rule. just sayin' ;) if that's what makes your story...write it. (cuz it happens all the time in real life so you know the 'plot' works)
DeleteI've heard the same, Kay. I often thought once that rule is broken, the genre moves from 'romance' to 'women's fiction'! Hah!
DeletePerhaps in historical romance, it is more common for a monogamy formula, but in today's world, I think Lavender is right-- it happens all the time. (and YES Cupid, I think it's a dumb rule too!)
Nothing's better than a little UST-- I'd actually prefer a near-kissing scene to a real one!
ReplyDeleteYes! Yes! Yes!
DeleteAG - did you see/participate in the No Kiss Blogfest this year? it was fun. People wrote 'almost kisses' and posted them on their blogs. I wrote/posted one. It was fun to read all the ALMOST kisses. Some put you on the edge of your seat. Mine was a deleted scene from my MS.
DeleteOh man, sad I missed that! I would have had a great scene for it. :)
DeleteMy favorite love story of all time is GOD-SHAPED HOLE by Tiffanie DeBartolo. I had always wanted to write, but that book was game-changing for me.
ReplyDeleteJust to turn up the heat a little - what about sex in YA? Is it a no-no? Cause... come on... teens do way more than hold hands, even back in my day! lol
ReplyDeleteAre there "rules"? Does it need to be more subtle? What about if it's kind of integral to the plot in some way?
I've only read a couple where the YA characters "go all the way" :) And it was implied but not described in any way. I do know one writer who writes steamy sex scenes in YA.
DeleteI'd love to hear from others.
I don't think there are any rules against it, but I think it's tacky. Sure kids go out and do the 'boom-boom', but when we start throwing it into common literature without consequences or careful consideration written about protection, it condones it in a way that will lead to an even MORE morally flexible society than we're dealing with today.
DeleteI was actually having a discussion like this on someone else's blog. We came to the conclusion that in most YA books, when it comes to minors the sex is either faded out, or has negative connotations (eg. rape, cheating, etc). The only YA book I've read so far that isn't like that is the Twilight Series, and even then Bella is 18 before they do the deed, and it does fade out somewhat even though they go all the way.
DeleteI don't know if this is because parents don't want their children encouraged to have underage sex or what. :/
I'm just now digging into my 3rd WIP and personally speaking all my MS's have sex in them, or at the very least extensive talk of it. Not the hot, steamy variety, but usually the sloppy, first time variety :)
DeleteI think it's appropriate if it's believable for the character and necessary for the forward momentum of the plot. But that's not always the case. I've read some where it was just forced and only there for shock value, which I think devalues the experience for the reader.
But is it the responsibility of the YA writer to teach readers morality? I am of two minds about this. On one hand, I tend to dislike parables and prescriptive fiction for anyone over the age of 10. When I was a YA myself, I *hated* novels that were obviously trying to teach me “an important lesson”.
DeleteOn the other hand, I love strong female characters. And it bothers me when young adults are embracing protagonists who aren’t positive role models. Which, I know, seems hypocritical.
In the end though, some young adults are having sex, some are not. The real question is not “What are the implications of my character having sex for the reader?” but rather, “What is true to this character, and to this story?
I'm a mother and I have a hard time writing a sex scene that I know my boys might read someday. AH, just can't do it. LOL.
DeleteWow! Excited to hear from an agent on this!!!!
DeleteThanks Halli! Good points.
All about the characters. Agreed. :)
DeleteI think just like any other scene, it should move the book forward in some way. Just like you're not going to write about a character going for a run or cooking themselves dinner unless there's a POINT to it, there has to be a point to YA sexytimes.
DeleteBut, yeah. Teenagers have hormones, teenagers have sex. If they want to, or if they're okay with it, it doesn't mean they're messed up in any way, or have "issues," or are a bad character. It isn't even necessarily like a huge life decision for a lot of teens - just a natural progression of a relationship. So, if it's in there, and it's important, then yeah. Write it!
My rule is no naming specific body parts. :) But that's just mine...otherwise, I feel like I'm writing YA erotica. And even the idea of writing regular erotica makes me giggle and blush.
Personally, I've had one MS where it's happened, another where it hasn't. In this third one, it probably won't either. All for the reason I stated first.
(that's not to say that I didn't WRITE the scene. Bc I think it's fun. Just that it's not INCLUDED. :))
i think it has to be done right and not gratuitously. even though, yeah, it's totally happening. It seems to be implied (like in Breaking Dawn - turn the page and huh? they did? Did i miss a page?) Only a few can pull off the detailed scenes. FORBIDDEN by Tabitha Suzuma was excellent. Excellent love story, heartbreaking, with a detailed scene (no spoilers) but well-done all around. And all parts necessary, in my opinion. YA's wanting/hoping/wishing to have sex in the book - that's pretty real - and it doesn't bother me, though it may bother other people.
ReplyDeleteOh my God, the disappointment in Breaking Dawn when there was no sex scene!!! I can't be the only one, right?
DeletePersonally it bothers me when we assume YAs aren't doing anything more than hand holding, and yet we are told to have a realistic voice.
ReplyDeleteI'm certainly not talking anything gratuitous or just for the shock value. My MC has a lot of internalised torturing to endure first :)
I am writing in a time period when girls were watched like hawks and not allowed out unchaperoned. So my MC's decision has huge ramifications for her and how she feels society perceives her. For me I feel like the story will get to a point where it will feel right. Not that I've written it yet - kissing is giving me enough problems, knife fights are easier! lol
At a writers conference I attended last weekend, a panel of writers talked about love triangles. They said to make both boys equally desirable, and to make your readers hate you for who your MC chooses. Readers should be split across the board between Team One Boy and Team The Other Boy. Don't make one worse just because you don't want readers mad at you. This really opened my eyes because I was struggling with just that--not wanting to make that other guy too likable. I am struggling no longer, and writing about both being awesomeness is way funner anyhow.
ReplyDeleteAwesome! Thanks for sharing this with us.
DeleteMATCHED is the perfect example of this. It makes me really, really happy I'm not Cassia.
DeleteAt SCBWI in NYC last month Cassandra Clare talked about love triangles and made the point that in a true triangle the to boys (usually it's boys, right?) have to have a relationship with each other (natural enemies, brothers, co-workers, what have you). If they don't know about each other, it's a "love V" and won't have the same punch.
ReplyDelete*two boys (typed too fast!)
DeleteI like that...a love triangle vs. a love V. And agreed that it is much punchier when the boys know each other and we can see them interact.
DeleteWhat is your favorite love story written by a male author? Since men and women tend to view the subject differently, it's always interesting to see it written from the male perspective. For me, anyway. Being that I'm a girl.
ReplyDeleteThe Lovers Dictionary by David Levithan. Nontraditional, but I loved it!
Delete"The Fault in our Stars" by John Green. It's so much more than a love story, of course. It's just so, so good.
DeleteI hate most YA books because they keep pretending to have cool girl MCs--then they tell you that a cool girl can't do anything without falling in love with a boy or multiple boys. They're saving the world or their families or whatever, but they can't do it without LOVE? After all, once a girl has found LOVE, that's it. Her life is perfect and over, she might as well get in the kitchen and start cooking. Right, right???
ReplyDeleteAnd readers go ahead and enable this rampant sexism. Yay.
/rant
I don't think there is anything wrong with falling in love. Why do anything if you don't have love. To me, LOVE is what makes this place worth living in. Everything centers around those I love. My life didn't end when I got married and started taking care of my family. To me, there's nothing greater I could be doing.
DeleteI think it's sad that so many think that's getting the shaft these days. Life isn't over just because you admit you love someone who loves you back. That's when it really begins. Why even save the world if there is no love (all kinds), anyway? So we can save all our fancy houses, prestigious jobs, and up to date electronic devices. Not so much.
Just my opinion and all opinions are welcome here. :)
Ditto what Cupid said. But also…I think you need to read more YA if you think it's all the same. : ) For example, try GOING BOVINE and we'll talk.
Delete